Editing 40d Talk:Screw pump

{{archive|
#[[Talk:Screw pump|Current discussion]]
#[[Talk:Screw pump/archive1|Archive1]]
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== Archiving ==

See [[/archive1]] for discussions before July '08.
Most discussion was regarding page development which has been implemented. There are a few comments which might help people trying to work things out but most of it is in the article.[[User:GarrieIrons|GarrieIrons]] 00:56, 5 July 2008 (EDT)


==Two versions of the L-shaped tunnels design==
As I said when I removed it, there is no point having two. Do not add mine back in again. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 21:57, 25 July 2008 (EDT)


You'd also cut how to set up water wheels & connect them to the pump tower. I wasn't 100% certain how to diagram connecting the wheels to the smaller tower design so I thought it best to restore the whole section until someone added that into the L-shape design. [[User:Calenth|Calenth]]

== Pumping Magma? ==

Would this work if the pump was made of magma-safe materials? --[[User:Mizzy|Mizzy]] 21:10, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

:Please check a talk page's [[Talk:Screw_pump/archive1#Materials_for_magma_pumps|archives]] before asking a question. --[[User:N9103|Edward]] 02:46, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

:An edit to the [[Stupid dwarf trick]] page implied that only the blocks need be made of magma-safe materials. This needs to be studied further. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 17:28, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
::I have been building magma pumps out of wood (pipe/screw) and stone blocks for ages now; there are no detrimental effects. Since non-bauxite/non-raw adamantine stones are not magma safe, presumably a wooden block will work as well (a waste of logs if you have stone, though). It is only an issue if any part of the pump (namely, the walkable end) is going to be submerged in magma. You're probably working with a poor design if your pumps are submerged in what they're pumping, but whatever. In that case your best bet is to use green glass tubes/screws/blocks, if you have sand. Metal is a last resort. --[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 20:59, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Wait - glass is magma-safe? what's its melting point? [[User:Random832|Random832]] 23:29, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Glass itself appears to be hardcoded and from what I can tell does not have a melting point. Pretty sure glass is magma safe. I have never had problems with it. It's a nice way to get infinite tubes and corkscrews. --[[User:Pavlov|Pavlov]] 23:27, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::::Just tried to build a pump using a nickel block with a wooden screw and a wooden tube.  All it created was a huge mess and a bit of smoke and fire.  Luckily, the pump is separated enough from my fort that I can just let the magma cool before moving back in.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 00:57, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
:Did you make sure the magma coming out of the pump (on the same z-level of the pump) couldn't go back around and over the back of the pump? [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:56, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::Hmm...actually, I had to cut a whole because the dwarf who constructed it had the bright idea to get himself stuck by standing on the walkable tile.  I guess maybe I should put a door there to allow access while blocking the magma next time to make sure it work.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 12:59, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
::Tested this again.  There is no problem using a wooden Archimedes screw (giant wood screw+giant pipe) to pump magma as long as the block used is magma proof and  magma does not leak around to the passable tile.  The second that happens, though, the pump bursts into flame.--[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]] 02:29, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
:::Upon further testing, it seems that wooden magma pumps can work, but only for so long.  As soon as the magma reaches a certain height, it burns up the wood and pushes the burn-proof block out of the way.  I just lost about 10 worker dwarves in a accident trying to create an above ground lava cistern for my glass fortress, as soon as it reached an average level of about 5, the pump gave way.  Between those deaths and the ones from the recent goblin ambush, I fear my fortress will devolve into madness and tantrums any day now.  ADDENDUM:  I would also like to add that the magma has just ''burned a hole through 2 z-levels of sand'' and is now flooding my workshops.  It seems that the red liquid deserves a lot more respect and caution in the latest release. --[[User:Alkyon|Alkyon]]

== Self powered pumps ==

So I'm just starting a new fortress, its got everything but an easy to make moat, but there is a river start to the east a little and two or three levels lower than my entrance. So, what I'm wondering is, is there some easy way to get a hydraulic powered pump going off of the power of the water being pumped (after the dwarves do the initial pumping). Also if anyone has diagrams or something of how to easily bring water up two or three levels (or possibly higher if theres some advantage to having water fall from a height). Sorry if this is kind of stupid or answered or anything, last time I played the game it had 1 level and I never got too much into mechanics farther than floodgates (lots of complicated and redundant floodgates as I recall) so I've never tried a pump or waterwheel. I'd rather not screw up this map (its just short of perfect, major magnemite deposits with limestone being the main component to the mountain overall, access to every civ, its Cold [I'm from Canada so I like the cold], has good hunting and a major river start). Thanks --[[User:Lowlandlord|Lowlandlord]] 15:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

:Place a waterwheel in the original river to supply power. You can raise water multiple levels by the methods described [[Screw_pump#Multiple_Levels|here]]. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 20:01, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
::Thanks --[[User:Lowlandlord|Lowlandlord]] 01:57, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Note that if you bring the water up higher than the moat, it '''will''' (not might. will.) overtop your moat. That's a good way to flood your fortress. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 16:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

An example of the [[Screw_pump#Multiple_Levels|multi-level pump]] including power source, gear assemblies and axles would pretty much make my entire month. Anyone up to the challenge? Pretty please? [[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 22:09, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Wait, the stacked pumps transmit power upwards ''through themselves''? I didn't realise that - if it's true, then the whole L-shaped tunnels section is unrequired and should probably be removed. --[[User:Juckto|Juckto]] 06:05, 6 November 2008 (EST)

: I've been playing around with this for the last week or so. I completely missed the bit where you need to have a channel underneath the front end of the pump in order for power to transmit (you put the channel under the front end so that the pump blocks the water). You can also draw water from a stairway or into a stairway. And since water pressure will push water up z-levels, you don't actually need to stack your pumps. In other words:


 0-lvl  all others levels
 ~www~ .....   www  a waterwheel
 ..|.. .....    |   pumps from
 .#V#. .###.    v   the north
 .#X#. .#X#.    X   into up/down stairway
 .###. .###.    #    surrounded by walls
 ..... .....

That should work for a substantial height. Sadly, my current river is filled with carp, so I won't be able to find out for a while. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 08:49, 6 November 2008 (EST)

:Pumps only push fluids up to their height. --[[User:Savok|Savok]] 21:47, 28 November 2008 (EST)

== Front vs rear ==

Do I understand correctly that the 'front' tile (i.e. blocks water flow) is the one where the water comes out of?

Sort of - it actually just 'spawns' water in the tile on the opposite side of that tile from the rear walkable tile, an amount equal to that which is removed a z-level down. --[[User:Sukasa|Sukasa]] 16:19, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

But either way, the output side blocks flow (so if in a narrow channel water cannot backflow through the pump if it is turned off), right? I need to know this for a design. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 16:31, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

: Yes, you are correct. I too was confused by the use of the word "front", as my perception is that the "front" of a pump would be where the water goes in, not out. --[[User:Raumkraut|Raumkraut]] 04:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

== Alternate vs. other ==

Alternate generally means "in turn" or "in place of" -- not "as an alternative".[http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000296.htm][http://cjrarchives.org/tools/lc/alt.asp]  But "alternative" can have its own problems,[http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alternate.html] which is why I would recommend "other uses" here.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 20:05, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

:While I appreciate the need for clarity, I don't think either word particularly changes the scope, knowledge, breadth or content of the page. I suggest that both words work equally well. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 21:31, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

::May I ask for people's permission, then, to change it to 'other'?  The function of the page may not be substantially affected by it, but I hate to be unable to correct what I understand to be an error.  'Course, if no one agrees, I'll let it drop.--[[User:Maximus|Maximus]] 11:28, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:::I support other! [[User:Milskidasith|Milskidasith]] 14:09, 11 November 2008 (EST)

== Pump + Stairs = Win? ==

Is there any reason why I can't use the stairs as the open space that I'm pumping water from?

 Side View   Top Views   Key
 ######      ######   
 #v->__      #v->^#      -> or <- : Direction of pump
 #^<-v#      ######      v : down stairs
 #v->^#      #^<-v#      ^ : up stairs
 #^<-v#      ######      # : Wall
 ____^#                  _ : space

I came up with this right after exiting the game. I'll try it out soon. --[[User:RomeoFalling|RomeoFalling]] 10:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

:No reason you couldn't, but it'd be rather silly as your dwarves can't walk through the pump. [[User:Random832|Random832]] 08:58, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

== /fail at pump stacking. ==

I'm trying to construct a pump stack as shown in figure 2, which says 'notice how the front of the pump doesn't need a floor'. If I have open space there, it says it's blocked, 'needs ground or near machine'. I can't build the bottom one to go up. So I tried the top down; same problem. To (badly) diagram it vertically; (_= floor, .= space, %=front of pump over space, @=pump on solid floor)<BR>

 .@@_ <- Pumps from left to right onto solid floor
 _@%. <- right to left.
 .%@_ <- left to right. 
 wmwm <-water

I can't build any of the pumps if either of their Xs are sitting over an open space. If I build a gear, it won't let me build on top of it. The diagram doesn't seem to show a need for gears, anyway, which is what I was trying to do. Just for laughs, I closed off one of the two holes on the bottom, built the pump and had someone pump it. It quickly (Almost immediately) filled the room with 1/7 water, so I got that right... how do I build the next level up so it connects to the one below, then the one on the surface that will begin the perpetual motion through the attached waterwheel? Trying to give the ungrateful little buggers a waterfall in the statue garden...--[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 01:41, 30 November 2008 (EST)
:Ok, I now got the whole stack built...for some reason, it wouldn't let me when I tried it previously, but now I have it going... but they don't seem to all operate when one is manually pumped to prime. --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 02:12, 30 November 2008 (EST)
:Or when temporarily powered with a windmill. As soon as the gear and axle gets wet, it stops working. With three guys pumping, the waterfall runs for a little bit, half flooding the statue garden. :-p Why are they not connecting to power each other vertically?

You need to put the power-transfer hole under the output end of the pump. The impassable part will prevent backflow. Also, from your diagram it looks like the top pump isn't getting a power hole while the bottom onw is. Thta should be reversed. --[[User:Bilkinson|Bilkinson]] 08:35, 30 November 2008 (EST)

:Aargh. I tore the whole thing down, built floors over everything, then very, very carefully figured out where I needed holes. I removed the floors so that the dark green Xs were over the open spaces above the light green Xs of the pump below, and still nothing. I gave up on the water wheel idea because I didn't have enough vertical space to channel beneath it, so I set up a windmill on a roof on top of built walls above the top pump, very carefully making sure to leave space above the dark green X on the pump... and STILL nothing. -- Hm. Just went to tear down the windmill and it says 'has 20 power, need 30'. (Spends two hours fiddling around adding walls in the wrong place, tearing them down, rebuilding them, convincing a bunch of doofuses to move the mechanism that is there to make a gear out of the way of the axle) Success! Finally got it... was a lack of power. One dwarf is capable of running one pump (until he nearly drowns himself. :p) but apparently they don't run each other in that configuration. That's what was foozling me. And yes, I screwed up on what I diagrammed above...which was part of the problem. The diagram was accurate to what I'd built...(Edited to add what I forgot: Thanks for the help, Bilkinson. :D) --[[User:Azaram|Azaram]] 05:51, 1 December 2008 (EST)


== Structure around stacked pumps? ==

I also /fail at pump stacking.  I keep getting "no access".  Could someone please explain the structure needed around the pump so that another pump can be built on top of it?  --[[User:Keesto|Keesto]] 15:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== Pump Rate ==

Does anyone have a good estimate of the pump rate?  It doesn't have to be accurate 7ths of a tile per step, but maybe enough to say "if you're building a waterfall that is x tiles across, and the fall is fed from a reservoir of y tiles, you need z pumps operating to maintain constant water flow, and z pumps operating to keep the upper reservoir full" or something...
--[[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 00:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
:Screw pumps move a full tile of liquid every ''frame'' (where it can take a few dozen frames for a non-Agile dwarf to move one square), as long as there's at least 2/7 in the input tile. In other words, they'll move liquid as quickly as you can give it to them (though they can limit the flow rate of highly pressurized water). --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 23:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

== Water Purifying / Desalting ==
Can someone better explain how exactly one must dig/build a water purifier to turn salt water into drinkable water?  My last 3 tries have failed miserably...[[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 03:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I just built an entire zone out of wood and stone, it stands free of all walls.  I dug a chasm out for the entire thing, I even built the floor of the screw pump out of wood floor just to be safe.  The moment I turned that pump on it was salt water (double ~) so I don't know how old this information is but unless I'm missing something you cannot de-salt water with a screw pump [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 09:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I figured it out.  I added a video to make sure there is no confusion on how to do this for newbies. [[User:Kenji 03|Kenji 03]] 00:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

== "Natural" walls and floors ==

''Salt water pumped through a pump will become drinkable if then kept separate from natural walls, natural floors, other salt water or an aquifer.''

I dug out a reservoir, pumped some water into it, and put a well on top of it. The dwarves drank from the well. I didn't build the reservoir's walls or floor. I just dug them out. I didn't even smooth them down. They are natural.

What is meant by "natural" walls and floors?[[User:LogicalDash|LogicalDash]] 02:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

:Afaik, exactly what you have described.  Did you have any "salt" water anywhere? (You didn't mention it, so I have to ask.) --[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 07:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

::Dwarves don't seem to care about salinity when drinking from wells, which is strange. If you use the same well to fill up a second, constructed cistern, however, the water is still salty, so wells don't actually desalinate the water. By "natural" it is meant walls that are there when the game starts, and cannot be removed with the d > remove coNstructions.

== Water Containment ==

The uses of pumps to contain water pressure have been discussed extensively, but what about using pumps to transmit mechanical power into an area without allowing water to flow out at all?

Axles run into both sides of the pump. The impassible square of the pump prevents water flowing from the right (submerged) to the left (unsubmerged), while the pump transmits power from one axle to the other. I know this is a simple concept, but it took me a while to think of it - and when most of this system has to be submerged in pressurized water, it's rather nice to be able to block water entirely, and I think the concept merits a section on the page (whether it works or not, actually).

     #<nowiki>~~~</nowiki>       # = stone wall        ~ = water
 ===%'''%'''---      %'''%''' = pump (pumping from the left to the right -> )
     #<nowiki>~~~</nowiki>       = = dry axle
                - = submerged axle

The pump is "active", but accomplishing nothing because the left (intake) is entirely dry.

I'm setting up for a test run; I'll report results shortly, I hope.
--[[User:Cowmage|Cowmage]] 17:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:This does work, even under significant pressure. I'll add it to the 'alternate uses' section. --[[User:Cowmage|Cowmage]] 22:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
::This could even work for magma, if you replaced the submerged axles with (bauxite) gear assemblies (and met the additional power req's).--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 22:04, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

==No Flow to Diagonals==

Due to space constrains, I tried pulling off this scenario:

 .####<br />#%%=#<br />#####

('#'=stone, '.'=level land, '='=floor bars over channel, '%'=pump from right to left)

The the pump would not output to the diagonal level land, so I had to modify my plans somewhat. Should this be noted somewhere? [[User:Jaaz|Jaaz]] 17:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
:Your diagram is unclear, but if that's a side view then it's known (and noted) that water does not flow diagonally up or down.  If that's a top view, it's ''clearly'' stated that a pump requires 4 tiles in a row - not in a diagonal.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 21:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

== Where does the dwarf go? ==

It would be nice if someone who knew how these contraptions work could include an illustration of how to pump water just using a dwarf.  I tried and my dwarf go washed into the river he was pumping and drowned.

In case of an emergency your beard cannot be used as a floatation device.
--[[User:Jpwrunyan|Jpwrunyan]] 14:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
:When a dwarf operates a pump, he always stands directly on the "rear" tile of the pump. In your case, you probably didn't have walls around the output tile to prevent backflow, and said backflow was enough to push your dwarf into the river. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 14:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 The light pump tile is where a pump operator will stand (if the pump is not powered mechanically). 
::There's a lot to read, but it's there, the 2nd point in the "Notes" section.  (And, oddly enough, the dwarf doesn't stand on the dark-colored tile, which is repeatedly defined as ''impassable.'') Adding redundant comment elsewhere for emphasis/clarity, because it is rather key.--[[User:Albedo|Albedo]] 18:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Hey thanks, I must have missed that the first time and when I came back I just scanned the article and missed it again!  I think I get it now, though!--[[User:Jpwrunyan|Jpwrunyan]] 13:24, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

== In Case of Overflow ==

Assuming that the cistern you're pumping into is full, will a screw pump on auto still attempt to pump through? In other words, will it still "take" water from the input side despite having no room to "output" it? I ask because I'm unsure of using a screw pump in conjunction with a finite source of water, like an underground pool. --[[User:Loyal|Loyal00]] 16:06, 29 January 2010 (EST)
:If there's no room for the water to go, the pump won't remove anything from its source tile. --[[User:Quietust|Quietust]] 00:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)